DISCLAIMER: The very easily offended may be offended by portions of this post. It is not my intent to offend you, so, sorry if it does. But, you have been warned.
So, the other day I said I was going to write a post… and that said post would be something that probably most everyone who reads the site would not agree with me on. There is one person who has been complaining at me about how I haven’t made said post yet… so I am here writing it now. That’s right, my friend, THIS is that post.
Before I begin discussing that which I really want to post about, I want to preface this with a bit of what my purpose in posting this is. And that is this: I like to have solid reasons behind things. I like debates and such, discussion with people with whom I disagree, etc. It helps to determine what you really believe and why you believe it. As an easily understood example, take the matter of, say, murder. Murder is a sin. Why is murder a sin? The answer to that question is easily understood, in the horrible outcomes of it, etc. I do not believe murder is a sin solely because that is what I interpret the bible to mean when I read “Thou shall not kill.” Note that this could also be interpreted to mean that it is a sin to kill at all, including in such things such as war, which, I do not think the Bible teaches. So please do not soley quote bible verses in response to this… you can quote them, and you should quote them, but please be able to support your view with actual reasons, because honestly, I already know the bible verses you are going to quote (for the most part, at least) and I do not feel that they mean what you feel that they mean.
This post is on the matter of cursing. Cussing. Swearing. Whatever you want to call it. Is it wrong? Why or why not? If it is wrong, how big of a deal is it? Are you a horrible Christian if you swear?
One site that I went to a few days ago, and which was in fact a partial part of the inspiration for this post, because I couldn’t believe someone actually wrote something so stupid, said that they couldn’t even see a reason to curse, because “there is a substitute for every curse word there is.” Yes, it’s true, there are substitutes, and Christians use them all the time, guilt-free. But just think about that for a second. These are substitutes. Please establish for me the difference between fricking and fucking which causes the first to be perfectly acceptable and the latter to be sin. How about crap and shit? Dang and damn? Butt and ass? I really am curious to know the answer to this question, if anyone could please enlighten me. The author of the site I mentioned earlier conceded hat the meanings of said “curse words” were typically stronger emotion, but that they otherwise meant the same thing.
How about words that USED to be considered curse words, but now are not, at least not by the average person. These words include “suck”, “piss”, and even the now acceptable for Christian use “crap”. So at what point did it STOP being a sin to use these words, and at what point will other words cease to be unacceptable? Who decides this said point?
Onto a point that I touched on earlier. What actually makes a swear word a bad thing to say? I can say that premarital sex is wrong, because I can see the negative effects it has, and I could list off many reasons why. I can do the same with lieing, or with stealing, or with murdering, etc. I cannot do that with cursing. I do not know what negative effects cursing has. You could argue that cursing can be hurtful to a person, such as if someone were to say “fuck you”, but this is not the word that is the sin, but rather the attitude of hate in the person who has said it. Calling a driver who cuts you off a moron is no better then calling him a fucking idiot. I guarentee that your heart is the same in both instances. So what negative effects does it have? Does it offend you? I find that the only people it really offends are Christians. Why does it offend you? Can you give me legitimate reasons?
Another argument that I often hear, though it is not really support for swearing being a sin, but rather a discouragement from swearing, is that swearing makes you sound like an idiot. This is a statement that can be true, but I also think that sometimes someone could look like an idiot by not swearing. Come on, you know you’ve seen a movie with the words edited and it sounds ridiculously stupid without the proper word. You know you’ve seen some kind of Christian production where it sounded real cheesy. Swearing makes you sound dumb if you don’t understand how to properly use the English language. If every other word out of your mouth is a swear word, then yeah, you’re going to sound like an idiot. Swear words really aren’t designed to be used all the time. They carry with them connotations of extreme emotion, etc. Swear words are very strong words. Strong words should be used reservedly.
I could probably write more on this, but it is getting late and so since I have finished my train of thought I am going to stop. It’s already fairly long, anyway. Please respond to this, tell me what you really think. I am not above changing my mind on this view if someone were to display to me a legitimate reason why swearing is a sin. But for those of you who may worry about this, I don’t really swear anyway. On occasion, yes, but certainly not on a regular basis. I don’t have the need for it that much, and due to my conditioning of not swearing, I most often find myself using those substitutes. And please, speaking of that, don’t use substitutes if you think swearing is a sin. Because if it’s a sin to swear, it’s a sin to use a word that means the exact same thing too.
Godspeed.
I am in the middle of work so I do not have long to post a reply but I will say this… the long and short of it is that all comes down to what is cultural. As a example for us in America the finger means well… the finger but here in europe the thing that means what our “finger” meas is our “peace” sign. Another example is that the word fucker came from the abreviation of German bombers and the derogatory association with the word comes from when they would be bombed by the planes. In the end a curse word is a word, what makes it a curse at least for society at large is the heart (or emotions) behind it and the strenght of them, the associated context with the word (we all know examples of that). A examle of a non curse word with what I am talking about is the word intersting. In reality it means that something is intresting…. it peaked your interest, got attention. But LOTS of people I know only know/use it with the meaning that the person they are talking to or about did or said something dumb. Thats not how the word started out :). Anyway I will finsh this later, time to ge back to work.
Very nice. I agree with you totally about the heart issue… it really is all about your motive.
And I also have been conditioned not to curse… which I believe is a good thing. Sometimes it is just better to not offend someone… i.e. it cuts them off from hearing anything else you need to say which could actually carry importance.
I suppose I could say more but I suppose I should get to work 🙂
Way to go, Reese. I love it when people take on cultural norms and expose them for what they really are. I also believe that swearing is not about the word but about the heart. I also only swear on occasion. But I tend to think that the cultural norm argument and the matter of the heart argument should lead us to be more restrictive, not less.
I’m a fan of Adventures in Odyssey, a half hour radio drama made by Focus on the Family (for anyone who might not know). I remember an episode where some kids heard the word “maladroit” used, and started using it repeatedly, and thinking it very cool and humourous to do so. Maladroit is only a vocabulary word that means “an inept person.” But the kids didn’t even know what it meant, only that it was derogatory. At the end, one kid’s father heard about what was going on and became very angry. When asked why he was mad, since the word wasn’t really all that bad, his response was that he didn’t want his son using words as weapons.
The episode was so well put together and it expressed my opinion so well I almost cheered. If we call someone a moron, we shouldn’t say, “Oh well, my heart is already wrong, so I might as well express myself fully and say ‘fucking idiot.'” We should stop and reflect on the condition of our heart. We shouldn’t avoid euphemisms because they’re substitutes for the “bad words.” We should avoid them because of the source from which they come.
well, so far i more or less agree with all comments that have been expressed. I thought i’d reply a little bit. I fully agree with you matt (kral). It is absolutely wrong to call someone a moron or a fucking idiot. That is a matter of controlling the tongue and your heart. I just want to clarify that I am in no way trying to say it is ok to do that, only that there is no real difference between the two, since the intent is the same.
i also agree with elliot about how it is a good idea to not offend people. The bible certainly does tell us that we should not cause others to stumble. I do not think that this means we are bound to live our lives to appease every person who we come into contact with, however I do think that in a matter as minor as this really is, that we can certainly refrain from doing so around people who would be offended.
Having said this is a minor issue, i suppose someone might wonder why i am making issue of it at all. That is because this is a minor issue that has been MADE into a big issue. From my experience, the church in general has a pretty BIG emphasis on cursing. I really would just like for people to get it under perspective.
Keep the comment coming.
I agree.
Well, I definitely agree with you on everything you’ve said, and I guess the main reason why I chose not to curse (cuse, swear, whatever) is to keep my reputation in tack. Many people only come in contact a few “real” Christians in their life time (ie: Christians that have a personal relationship with God, and not just one of the 60% of America that “claims” to be a Christian), and I think that if I were to cuse like “everyone else” the people that I try to reach would view my life style as the same as theirs… and see no reason why they would have to change. (Granted… this goes the same for smoking, drinking, music, “bad” movies, etc. – which is all really a personal conviction and judgment issue anyway). I guess it’s just my way of trying to keep myself from slipping into other things that are not edifying… cusing is my “gateway drug” – once I start cusing around certain people… I feel more relaxed to act “worldly” around them – and then at the end of the night I feel like I’ve let myself and God down.
(And now what I’ve written the cheesiest comment ever… I’ll be on my way). But thanks for writing this post Jason – and for making me think about why I do, and do not do, certain things.
Why is swearing wrong? Thats the question right?
You coverd murder and premarital sex, and said that they are wrong because of the negative consequences they produce. However Murder and premarital sex would be wrong even if there were no negative consequences. Let me illustrate if I may, bear with me though ethics is possibly the most complex form of philosophy so hear go’s nothin.
ultimately a thing is evil because it is evil. Ethics is the one area that I think “Just because it is” is a perfectly valid explanation of why something is wrong. You said premarital sex is wrong because of the harmfull consequences, did you not? Well what your really saying is that harm is evil. Now this is given without explanation. What you mean is that harm is evil in itself right? so if something causes harm it is bad because harm is bad(you see the question begging). Well harm may or may not be bad that all depends on your perspective. My point is that murder, sex, drugs, swearing all the same in this regard if any of them are evil they are evil in and of themselves the same as harm. Murder is evil because murder is evil. Why? Because God said so. Thats all the only way to escape an arbitrary labelling of what is good and what is bad, is to have an authority to tell you. The authorities being God and those he has chosen to convey the message.
This is why Atheists can never have an ethical system that is logical. All they can do is arbitrarily label certain ideas as good or bad such as harm, or utillity, or respect etc. Without any good reason, it all just comes down to what ever seems to them at the time to be “good” or to be “evil”. The truth of which could never be refuted or affirmed. And thus only the athiest should resort to consequentailist ethics.
If I could save the world by having premarital sex and nothing else could save it, and there would be no negative consequences because of it. I am still bound by God’s law to let the world die rather than intentionally sin.
How does this apply to cursing? Well words are words. Words of themselves I don’t think we can say are bad. However if I had a child and his first words where fuck you asshole I would be seriously considering a new approach to parenting. That’s because cussing is always used in a deragatory or hurtfull way. Though Shalt not kill. To curse at someone my not kill them physically but it can kill there self confidence and such. But why since the words are good all words are good? I would suggest that because murder is an evil per se and cursing is a form though no doubt a lesser form of murder then cursing is an evil per se.
I just reread this and it makes absolutly no sense at all. Or maybe it does? I can’t tell.
Let me know if this is the dumbest thing I ever wrote
Peace in Christ
Luke
wow I spelled thou “though”
I understand what you said, and I agree with you to an extent. What I disagree with is that God would say something is evil without there being a REASON for it being evil. I don’t think God just arbitrarily decided that things were evil. That is the point that I was trying to get at in my initial post.
I disagree that cursing is ALWAYS used in a derogatory or hurtful way. The words do usually denote negative emotions. Most are commonly used as expletives. If someone were to hit his thumb with a hammer then “fuck” “shit” or “damn” would all be pretty common things for someone to say. However, I would agree with you that they are often used in hurtful ways, but in those instances it is not the word itself that is wrong… but I also don’t think that you were arguing that that is the case.
Luke is right to a certain extent that something is wrong because God has said it to be so. Jason, I also think you’re right that God doesn’t say something is wrong without giving some sort of reason. Ultimately, I think the truth lies somewhere in between. God does not arbitrarily decide what is good and what is evil. Good an evil stem from God’s character itself. Anything that is good is a reflection of who God is. Sometimes, that really is all the more explanation that we receive on the morality of something.
As for cuss words always being used in a derogatory or hurtful way, I can give a good example where that’s not the case. If a person is impressed with the performance of an engine, he might say “That’s some serious shit!”
Bah! I’ve botched the HTML tags!
I did not mean to convey that God’s moral commands are in anyway arbatrary. I simply made no attempt to figure out why He made such commands. If I had to guess and this would be only a guess I would say that he knows more about what it means to be human than you or I do and that which is evil would be contrary to our nature and as such he would require us to avoid that said evil. Whether that be cussing or murdering or whatever sin of whatever degree all would be offensive to God because it involves a rebellion from the way He saw fit to create us.
That’s some serious shit!”
Even this statement is unexceptable. There are so many uses of swear words that I would hate to make another blanket statement, however, language of this type has no value to any situation. Replace it with another word like poop or whatever and the entire idea it represents is still pointless. How an engine compares with shit or how shit can be serious evades my comprehension? This is the reason that I would prefer to avoid the use of these words. Not that it is evil but because there are far better ways of describing things that we find as powerfull or exciting than comparing it with our own bodily waste that is niether powerful nor exiciting.
Why is cussing wrong? I don’t know!!! Probably because it just is. Will cussing deprive us of santifing grace I hope not at least not in all circumstances. But just because it can be a sin of a lesser type I don’t think it should be encouraged for every day use by our childeren.
Peace in Christ
Luke
You do make some good points Luke, but, in the end, it still seems ultimately that you’re saying it’s a sin just because it is. If I was fully convinced without doubt that God actually said not to, then this would be good enough reason, but I do not think that God ever really said that. I do not think that cursing is always the best of things, but I do not think it is neccesairly wrong. And in the cases of kids I believe it should be discouraged for other reasons that I won’t really get into.
Anyway, I was reading on the Five Iron Frenzy message board, and came across a post made by Reese Roper…. he had this to say in regards to cursing:
“What you and I think of as “cursing”, or “swearing”, or “cussing”, has been determined by values that our society has placed on various words. Whether they are “clean” or “unclean” has not been listed in our Bibles, and has yet to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, or the Pope, if you are into the whole Papal Infallibility thing. In Biblical times, most of what was considered to be cursing, was to make light of the conception of a person, or to criticize their parents, as in “you brood of vipers”(which Jesus called the moneylenders in the Temple as he was driving them out with a whip). What determines what you generally believe to be a “swear” word, is our society. For instance, the “S” word. ( I am censoring this for all of you who have never been to a rated R movie, or out of the Suburbs). The S-word derives it’s roots from the Anglo-Saxon tribes of what is now Great Britain. In the year 1072, when William of Normandy conquered and unified all of England, the old Anglo-Saxon words were deemed vulgar, and the newer Norman words were then deemed more appropriate by society. The “S” word was one of the words that was then deemed vulgar, as with the word “sweat”, and various other sayings of the native Anglo-Saxons. Paul, in many of his writings, actually used the word “Skata”, which even by the standards of the Hebrew and Greek societies at the time seemed coarse, means about the same thing as the “S” word, when used in it’s proper context. The verse that you are quoting in James, is actually talking about cursing, as in putting a curse on someone, the opposite of giving them your blessing. James is stating that you should not put curses on others. But he does, in chapter 3, command us to control our tongues, which I believe is the real issue. That we should control our tongues. Your verse in Ephesians says that what comes out of our mouths should also be edifying. I believe, that with this knowledge, saying “bad” words actually can be edifying, if done with control. One of my favorite stories about the author and speaker Tony Campollo, is that as an introduction to a talk he was giving to a group of wealthy Christian businessmen, he began by saying, “ There are over a billion people starving to death right now in this world, and not one of you gives a [S word].” The crowd gasped in terror. Then he said, “ And the worst part of it is, is that everyone in this room is more shocked that I said the word [S word], than they are that people are starving.” I’m with Tony. I find it extremely hypocritical that someone who would say that they are a follower of Jesus Christ, would be so caught up in all of this legalism and religion, that He fought so hard to keep us from while He was on the earth.”
that is all for now.
I don’t know how much more I have to say on this subject. I seems somewhat trivial to me.
It’s true the bible gives no list of cuss words to avoid and niether the Pope nor any councils have come up with a dogmatic statement in this regard, however, I don’t think we really need one to know. It’s not the words so much that I want to object to as much as it is the idea of obsenities in general.
There is a far eastern idea of being the master of ones self. Self mastery is something lacking in our culture. I think the over all approval of cussing in our society is a sign of our inability to even try and restrain ourselves. Christians above all others should be the master of themselves. Not in the sense that Christ is not our master but by willingly surrendering ourselves to His will. This is not a passive response on our part. No one is magically changed spontaniously, it takes hard work to force ourselves to follow the Law of the Spirit. For the Christian who would rather say freak instead of fuck, thats great it shows that instead of just giving a reflex reaction to pain or insult or whatever you would make some attempt to control the sinfull side of your nature and alter something so small as language for the glory of God and the betterment of your own soul.
If controling our language is to much to ask, how much harder will it be to control our actions?
alas, I feel that this plea of self sacrifice, self restraint, and self mastery has fallen on ears that have heard that salvation is by faith alone and that one need not master himself to please God and that to sacrifice for the sake of your own soul is not only useless but blasphemous and as such most protestant Christians will see this and point to just one more example of Catholic’s in attempt to earn salvation for themseleves and take something of the importants of Christs sacrifice away from Him. As if denying ourselves to follow Christ and ultimatly live forever with him is to do something wrong.(tangent??????? sorry just felt like this needed to be said.)
The world is not so far lost that it cannot be saved. Man is not evil at his root. If he were he would not be free. If man has a will at all it is a will that has both the opportunity and the ability to choose, whether for the worse or for the better. If he cannot then he is bound to the one or the other and Gods free gift becomes Gods hostile take over something which cannot be reconciled with a God concerned with Justice.
I think I can stop ranting now
Peace in Christ
Luke
Hey, I’m a college friend of Kralizec’s.
Man isn’t evil at his root? No, he’s dead. Dead, dead, dead. Dead people can’t choose life, it is beyond them. Only Christ can give life. After all, we love him Because he first loved us.
As to the main point about swear words, would this conversation be happening if we all spoke Spanish? Or Japanese? You are taking a variety of things and grouping them together. “Fuck” is not obscene nor profane, it is vulgar, as a word. “Damn”, misused, is profane. It is taking God’s work for ourselves.
It really is all about usage and intent. If you don’t hate anybody and say fuck, you haven’t sinned, and if the Bible doesn’t call something sin, no one has the right to. Of course, if you cause someone to stumble, you are doing wrong. So, while the use of certain words is not “wrong” it really is just better not to use them. It’s an image thing.
And Luke, there is no word, no matter how foul that can possibly seperate us from the love of God in Christ. What a silly idea.
I wasn’t trying to make a debating point in the last two paragraphs of my last comment. I was just trying to show that the real reason we disagree with eachother on this issue (if we really do I’m not completely sure) is due to deeper theological reasons. My religion requires at least some attempt at controling the flesh yours it would apear does not.
I never said that men do not need Christ so I don’t know why you implied that I did and I never said that a word could seperate us from the love of God, so please don’t misrepresent me.
I’m not sure that this conversation can get much more productive. I will I think this weekend start somewhat of a series of debat topics the first of which will be on original sin and the effects thereof, the second will be on the atonment and the effects thereof, and lastly if I get to it justification and how to receive it. All this of course will be presented from the Catholic point of view simply because I’m convinced that I have ever properly explained it.
I think this is the most logical order to in. I hope for lively discussion. All are welcome to join in if you like.
Peace in Christ
still against swearing
Luke
*Sigh* Luke, did you read my post? I don’t know what you are talking about.
You DID say, very clearly, that a word can separate us from Christ!
“Will cussing deprive us of santifing grace I hope not at least not in all circumstances.”
Those are your words. Not in all circumstances, eh? That means that you think there are some circumstances in which cussing will lead to us being separated from grace. And that is still a silly idea.
As for me implying that you said man doesn’t need Christ and all that crap (shit?) about my “religion” not requiring controling the flesh… Please work on your reading comprehension.